How fair is fairly traded food ?

[Anthony Butcher]

I don't believe that you are out of line at all. As I said, I support the idea of Fair Trade, and would never personally pay someone substantially less for something than I thought it was worth. In other words, I agree with the principle. However all the talk of enforcing minimum wages across Africa and the third world is, I believe, overly simplistic economics, and pie in the sky.

I did not take any part in organising the abysmal state of the UK economy, and have never voted for the political parties who have - so why should the state of the UK economy in any way relate to my ability to weigh up a situation in another country ?

I didn't say it did. It has nothing to do with ability, it is the fact that you are a British citizen (whether you like it or not) criticising other countries for their human rights and labour laws, and even telling them what policies they must adopt. Obviously you are free to say what you like, but they won't thank you for it

I will avoid talking about the race thing - as I said, I can't for the life of me understand how and why it ever entered into the conversation in the first place. In fact, your example of mixed race people (or "dual heritage" as they are now known) simple endorses my point that it is meaningless to talk abour race and it should have no place in civilised conversation.

[Astrocat]

it is the fact that you are a British citizen (whether you like it or not) criticising other countries for their human rights and labour laws, and even telling them what policies they must adopt.

Then i must insist once more : please answer my question about the UK-raised African citizens.

Also, I find your comment mildly offensive.
I am a Scottish citizen, am in favour of Scottish independence, and have never described myself as a British citizen.
The day that i stop being obligated to be a 'British citizen' (whether i like it or not) will be a happy one, and I would thank you not to rub my nose in it.

That's an irrelevance though, anyway..... my country of birth has no bearing whatsoever on anything, as far as I can see.

Through your response to my question, you can show me to be wrong though.


Conversely, if i were born in Scotland then I would be a Scottish citizen.
If my parents moved to Africa when i was 2 days old, then by your reckoning even after living in Africa for 26 years I would still have my 'appropriateness' in commenting on the situation there nullified by my 'citizenship'.

Myself personally, I find that to be a preposterous way to think about the situation because it seems illogical, but you are welcome to try and convince me otherwise.


Also : A person could be a Scottish Citizen for 40 years before marrying an African dude, and relinquishing their Scottish citizenship in order to officially be an African citizen. Like it or not, that is what they then would be. They then might stay in Africa for a year, decide that they don't love their husband after all ,and then might move back to the UK - doing the infamous VISA-dance every half a year in order not to go through the hassle of changing their citizenship back..... continue for 35 years until death.

Please explain how this person differes from me, in terms of how appropriate it is for them to comment on a fair trade situation in Africa.

they won't thank you for it

You keep on saying this, but is there any evidence that after a positive outcome from a Fair Trade campaign, the majority response from the previously opressed was negativity and hostility, or resentment and ingratitude towards the campaigners who were the catalyst for change ?

It seems to me that the opposite is true as this has been so in every case I have read about, but you seem certain that you are correct, so can you back that up ?

[Anthony Butcher]

Originally Posted by Astrocat

Then i must insist once more : please answer my question about the UK-raised African citizens.....

Please explain how this person differes from me, in terms of how appropriate it is for them to comment on a fair trade situation in Africa.

I am not talking about you personally, or any individuals, I am talking about the general premise. As I said, you can say whatever you wish, but you appear to be suggesting that the British government should intervene and promote specific policies in other countries. Apologies if I have misunderstood.

Originally Posted by Astrocat

You keep on saying this, but is there any evidence that after a positive outcome from a Fair Trade campaign, the majority response from the previously opressed was negativity and hostility towards the campaigners who were the catalyst for change ?

Well of course the people who get higher wages like it! I wasn't talking about Fair Trade, I was talking about your interventionist policies about trying to force every African nation to adopt a minimum wage system.

[Astrocat]

Then, are we finally agreed that my citizenship has nothing to do with anything which we have been discussing ?

you appear to be suggesting that the British government should intervene and promote specific policies in other countries. Apologies if I have misunderstood.

I said :

I am saying that I think UK law ought to be altered in order to make UK companies more responsible for their behaviour in foreign countries.

I advocate that governments have a duty to those who they claim to protect and ought to instate their own responsibly-assessed minimum wages.

I also said something or other about how the UK government should stop milking the african governments (i always thought government was a pural as well as a singular :P maybe i was wrong there) for all they're worth, and thus give them a bit of leeway to be able to make their own decisions if they want to rather than having little option other than to be bounced about by more powerful countries' governments.
But, i can;t find that quote.

I'm not sure how you infered what you did from that, and I don't know how to explain this any more clearly.

[Astrocat]

I support the idea of Fair Trade, and would never personally pay someone substantially less for something than I thought it was worth.

I support the idea of Fair Trade, but sadly I frequently pay someone rather less for produce, than what I think it's worth.

This is because otherwise i would have little to eat :P so few things are available Fair Trade, in the general scheme of things, especially on the remote hick island where i live.

I dislike being compelled to do that, since it's pitiful to pay someone so little that they can't even afford basic necessities for survival, but I make efforts to buy Fairly Traded food whenever I can, and hope that more becomes available in the future.

[Ian Knowlton]

Originally Posted by Anthony Butcher

You say that the supermarkets gain from "other people's misfortune", but I think that is unfair. It is a market place. Without the supermarkets most of those people wouldn't have a livelihood at all, and if they aren't happy with the deal they get, they should sell to a different chain.

It is indeed a marketplace, but not one where buyers and sellers have equal power. For agricultural produce grown in the third world -- bananas, coffee, and so on -- it's very much a buyer's market, where the buyers are huge Western concerns (such as Nestle, for instance). Unlike petroleum, there has never been a cartel for agricultural produce (though attempts have been made); as a consequence, buyers can play off producers against one another for lower prices. Since the producers are usually "banana republics" (in the literal sense of depending on the export of one or two agricultural commodities), they are desperate to sell at almost any price.

The gross exploitation may not be happening at the Tesco or Sainsbury stage, but earlier on.

On a different note, "fair price" is difficult to define operationally.